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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Greg Taylor about his new book stop

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worrying there probably is in afterlife

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that's what really kicked off that

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deathbed vision chapter when I read a

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Peter Phoenix paper with Hilary love

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license ooh brain comfort for the dying

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now they surveyed 38 carers palliative

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care is including doctors nurses anybody

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involved in that their statistics showed

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that at least 60% had stories of

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deathbed visions and the like you know

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so it's more than half of all those

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carers report these things and and then

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when I went to you know McConville in

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Ireland and then there's an American

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study that had like 500 participants and

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they're all around that 60 to 70 percent

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of palliative care is say that they've

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experienced these these things so yeah

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it's just a massive amount and it's very

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common and yet we hardly hear negative

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experiences get all this media attention

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and deathbed visions you know they don't

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seem to rate the same attention stay

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Icarus and on this

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episode Greg Taylor as you just heard

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joins us to talk about his new book stop

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worrying there probably is an afterlife

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if you know Greg from the daily Grail

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website then you know that he's a solid

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researcher who really digs into his

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topic to understand all angles before he

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speaks and this book is certainly no

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exception I learned a lot from this book

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and from this interview and I hope you

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do too and I hope it's not too late for

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you to pick up this book at Amazon and

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maybe give it to someone as a Christmas

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gift oh and one other thing before I get

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to the interview I do have to apologize

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the audio quality on this interview is

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not great I accidentally had the wrong

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mic turned on and my little studio here

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and that was talking into one mic and

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being recorded with another mic I hope

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you do stay with that there's a lot of

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good information in there here's my

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interview with Greg Taylor today we

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welcome Greg Taylor to skeptic Oh Greg

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is the creator of the amazing stalwart

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of paranormal websites that daily Grail

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which has been going strong for I don't

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know I think probably longer than the

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Internet has been around but Greg also

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has a new book out now called top Oren

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there probably is an afterlife something

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that is right up our alley here on

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skeptic oh so Greg was a guest on our

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show over four years ago great pleasure

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to welcome you back Greg thanks for

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joining me on skeptic Oh pleasure to be

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here do you know what I thought we might

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start with since I think a lot of people

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probably are familiar with the daily

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Grail a lot of the folks aren't let's

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start there tell folks about the daily

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Grail what you do there what's been

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happening there how it started just the

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basic rundown on the daily Grail website

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okay yeah the daily growl is basically a

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website that's devoted to news on

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Science and History and anything sort of

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on the fringe

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of the mainstream you know we don't go

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too far we're not into total what people

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you know the wacko territory of people

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just losing the foot completely we're

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just testing those edges of science and

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history which a lot of Orthodox

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scientists would say we're whoo in the

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words of Randy or someone like that but

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you know I don't think science or

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anything can move forward unless people

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keep pushing those boundaries of the

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edges of science and history so that's

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what the site's devoted to it started 15

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years ago now so it's been going a long

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time and it's just evolved over time

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originally I was more interested in a

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lot of the history things that's what I

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sort of grew up with and since then as

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times gone on I've become more and more

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interested in matters of consciousness

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which i think really is the big fringe

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area of science as much as science you

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know I watch to claim they know what's

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happening with the mind really we still

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have no idea so that's taken a lot of my

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time over recent years and has ended up

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in the book that I've just written why

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this book is maybe you answered that

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earlier when you said that do you feel

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like you cite the daily grill has

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shifted more and more into the

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consciousness area why did you feel the

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need to tackle this survival of

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consciousness issue near-death

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experience

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deathbed visions and all the rest it's

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just become an area that has really

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interested me and I was actually amazed

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that once I started digging in how much

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information you know the general public

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knows a lot about near-death experiences

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you know that seems to be news that gets

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out there in the mainstream a lot but

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and when I started looking at deathbed

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visions which is the whole chapter on

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deathbed visions or end-of-life

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phenomenon there's just some amazing

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things in there

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Peter Phoenix done some amazing work

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there research the things that he's

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showing up yeah and I think a lot of

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people weren't aware of that and even

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now that I've released it there's a lot

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of people that I thought knew a lot

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about these topics and they're coming

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back to me saying wow you know I just

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did not know that this is amazing so

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yeah that was the whole goal of the book

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is to get this information that if you

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dig into it a bit you start seeing but

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just isn't getting out there to the

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mainstream a lot and also just to you

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know I think

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you know you'd know as well as I do that

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skeptics starting are starting to like

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win that whole dialogue in the public of

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you know shutting down anything that's

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to do with this topic and I just wanted

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to get a book out there that wasn't all

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a new-age issue it was just going

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through the actual scientific research

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and saying look this seems to be

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something interesting happening here you

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know maybe maybe it is maybe it isn't

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but we deserve to look at these things

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more honestly and openly than we are at

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the moment well I think you did a really

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nice job of it first of all it's

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extremely well written I was surprised

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it was well written but I mean it's it's

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really well written it's it's accessible

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and one hand on the other hand it has a

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lot of great content as is evidenced by

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the more than twenty pages of notes and

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citations that you'll find in the back

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so you must have really done a pretty

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extensive job of covering your reading

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list before doing this book what what

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was your initial plan in terms of the

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breadth that you are going to tackle

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with this survival of consciousness

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issue we mentioned a couple near-death

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experience deathbed visions turn the

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lucidity how why did you cast the net

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initially and then maybe how much wider

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did the net get once you kind of got out

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there and saw what else there was yeah

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that was exactly what happened now I

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knew my topics I knew a fair bit about

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mediumship at least you know the last

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hundred years or so of research into

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that I was quite familiar with the

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near-death experience things I sort of

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just dipped into the deathbed vision and

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it just kept growing and growing and

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growing I looked at reincarnation stuff

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for a while in Stephenson's material and

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things that have been done since

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but eventually I just I actually I

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actually ended up with it would have

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been about a 600 page book and it was

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getting away from my goal of just

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hitting people with these cases and

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keeping it really simple so I think I

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cut it down from about 150,000 to 70 to

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74 thousand words something like that it

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was it was the editing actually took

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longer than the writing in the end

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because I was just trying to make sure

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it had punch and it just got across to

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the general

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appealing to guys like you and me who

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are quite familiar with all the topics

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already I wanted it to just hit the

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general reader so that they could see

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these topics so it was actually a big

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job of the net sort of grew a lot and

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then I started having to chop back a lot

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and hopefully in the end I've produced

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something that you know just has that

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punch for the general reader what

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surprised you the most Greg what would

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it just stumble across that really kind

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of tick you by surprise given that you

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knew a lot like you're saying I mean you

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for people who don't know aren't

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familiar with the dealer gorillas mean

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you're staying on top of these topics on

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a daily basis so you know the Evan

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Alexander thing hits with near-death

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experience you're all over it somebody

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writes a new book or pin bomb loml comes

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out with his book years ago you know

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you're on it so you're on this stuff on

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a daily basis what did you come across

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that really surprised you again it was

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the deathbed visions the end of life

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experiences let's jump right in there

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let's jump in there and maybe give folks

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an example of one or two of the cases

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that you talked about in the book that

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you thought were really interesting and

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if you can't think of one I'll tee one

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up I like your story of Arthur James

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ball four in his story I guess it's nice

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it really gives a start but a pretty

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amazing account if you can recall that

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one and tell listeners or if you have

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another favorite one that you want to

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share that no I'm a great lover of that

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whole Victorian era the spiritualism and

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things like that with mediumship

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research that I've done I've read a lot

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of that and I find it quite interesting

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and again when you go back to the

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deathbed vision material because a lot

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of people died at home in that era there

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seems to be a lot more reportage of this

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of these sorts of things and there's

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just so many you know even if you just

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leave alone in the whole afterlife topic

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they're just beautiful stories of people

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dying with their families now some of

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the tales of children dying and the

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parents are with them because you know

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back then without vaccines and things

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like that a lot of a lot of young

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children died and quite often some some

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of the stories you read the whole family

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of children just one hour for another

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dying it's tragic stuff but they make

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for great stories and some of those just

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really touched me the Belfour story

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as you know former prime minister of the

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UK it's fascinating

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again another topic that hardly anyone's

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heard of and it was just an attitude

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Roy's book and I saw it I was going look

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at this why don't more people know about

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this deathbed vision do you think ramble

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around and get it but okay I'll just

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read an excerpt from the book which is

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just start of that chapter which

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includes some of my introduction so

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Arthur James Balfour was a stalwart of

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00:10:41,460 --> 00:10:39,640
British politics at the turn of the 20th

274
00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:41,470
century serving but as both Prime

275
00:10:45,150 --> 00:10:42,910
Minister of the United Kingdom and later

276
00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:45,160
as the foreign secretary his influence

277
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:47,170
is still felt today via his authoring of

278
00:10:51,390 --> 00:10:49,210
the landmark Balfour Declaration of 1917

279
00:10:53,550 --> 00:10:51,400
which supported the establishment of a

280
00:10:55,470 --> 00:10:53,560
Jewish homeland in Palestine less well

281
00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:55,480
now longer is the tale of his final days

282
00:10:59,460 --> 00:10:57,250
in which the former Prime Minister and

283
00:11:01,290 --> 00:10:59,470
foreign sector secretary was apparently

284
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:01,300
fated by diplomatic mission from the

285
00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:04,240
undiscovered country with his niece by

286
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:04,630
marriage

287
00:11:08,010 --> 00:11:06,640
Jean Balfour sitting by his bedside

288
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:08,020
Arthur lay listening to his favorite

289
00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:10,210
music seemingly content with his lot

290
00:11:13,740 --> 00:11:11,950
despite his impending appointment with

291
00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:13,750
death with the nurse having retired

292
00:11:17,850 --> 00:11:15,550
downstairs and baliphar his sister

293
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:17,860
Eleanor syndrich sitting with them in

294
00:11:20,700 --> 00:11:18,370
the room

295
00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:20,710
Jean suddenly felt an odd feeling sort

296
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:22,300
of feeling of expectancy as though

297
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:24,310
anything might happen and then it goes

298
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:26,850
into her account as told in her words

299
00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:28,930
presently I became aware with a

300
00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:31,510
sensation of a mighty rushing wind which

301
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:33,190
was an entirely subjective as nothing

302
00:11:37,170 --> 00:11:35,170
around me was even stirred that the

303
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:37,180
neroon was full of a radiant dazzling

304
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:40,330
light this I felt rather than saw as a

305
00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:41,890
blind person might do and I started

306
00:11:45,630 --> 00:11:44,170
trembling now it seemed to me that there

307
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:45,640
were people there too they had no

308
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:47,920
concern with me they were invisible but

309
00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:49,510
I knew that they were clustered about a

310
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:51,910
jb's bed and that their whole attention

311
00:11:56,550 --> 00:11:54,370
was concentrated on him they seemed to

312
00:11:58,710 --> 00:11:56,560
be to me to be most terribly eager and

313
00:12:00,270 --> 00:11:58,720
very loving and strong in our recollect

314
00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:00,280
feeling a good deal of apprehension

315
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:02,230
because I felt they were there for some

316
00:12:06,540 --> 00:12:04,000
purpose though I did not know what it

317
00:12:08,070 --> 00:12:06,550
could be I could not stop the trembling

318
00:12:09,630 --> 00:12:08,080
so I was wondering if I ought to go out

319
00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:09,640
of the room into the passage for a

320
00:12:13,079 --> 00:12:11,470
little while when it seemed to me that

321
00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:13,089
something like a voice within me said

322
00:12:17,790 --> 00:12:15,790
you are not to go away and I looked at

323
00:12:19,830 --> 00:12:17,800
it Eleanor sitting in the armchair to

324
00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:19,840
see if she was aware of anything unusual

325
00:12:23,730 --> 00:12:22,450
but she did not appear to be the music

326
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:23,740
came for the passage where the words

327
00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:26,800
occur and in my flesh shall I see God at

328
00:12:31,170 --> 00:12:28,900
that moment my eyes were compelled to

329
00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:31,180
look at Arthur his face transfigured

330
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:32,830
with satisfaction and beauty seemed to

331
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:34,330
express all the glorious vision which

332
00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:36,310
both music and words conveyed and I

333
00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:38,200
stared fully expecting him to die at

334
00:12:41,850 --> 00:12:39,790
that moment and to pass straight into

335
00:12:44,070 --> 00:12:41,860
the heaven that awaited him on all sides

336
00:12:45,570 --> 00:12:44,080
but his face changed and then he was

337
00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:45,580
shaken with the seizure that marked the

338
00:12:49,890 --> 00:12:47,560
last phase of his illness and I was

339
00:12:51,660 --> 00:12:49,900
filled with terror and distress perhaps

340
00:12:53,850 --> 00:12:51,670
my shock was the greater for having just

341
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:53,860
been upon such spiritual Heights and the

342
00:12:57,810 --> 00:12:55,810
extraordinary thing was that I was

343
00:13:00,090 --> 00:12:57,820
vividly aware that the feeling in the

344
00:13:02,370 --> 00:13:00,100
room had not changed that the radiant

345
00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:02,380
joy and light still thrilled around him

346
00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:04,390
and that the agonizing spectacle of the

347
00:13:09,060 --> 00:13:06,670
poor bodies affliction caused no dismay

348
00:13:11,310 --> 00:13:09,070
of those unseen ones who watched but

349
00:13:13,770 --> 00:13:11,320
that it was what they had wanted to

350
00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:13,780
happen that was what seemed to me so

351
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,520
incredible as I fled for the nurse and

352
00:13:19,230 --> 00:13:17,440
as I ran immediately afterwards to

353
00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:19,240
telephone for the doctor I was standing

354
00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:21,790
over and over to myself it was intended

355
00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:24,460
it was intended thinking it over

356
00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:26,350
afterwards I began to realize that

357
00:13:30,930 --> 00:13:28,300
though to my bodily view it was terrible

358
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:30,940
to those who see the spirit it may have

359
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:33,010
simply been a fierce effort to cast off

360
00:13:37,290 --> 00:13:35,410
the body and set free us all already

361
00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:37,300
with them and since the merciful

362
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:39,310
unconsciousness accompanies the onset of

363
00:13:43,650 --> 00:13:41,530
a stroke we do not know and never will

364
00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:43,660
know into what peace and joy his soul

365
00:13:50,250 --> 00:13:46,500
may have receded in that little space

366
00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:50,260
such a beautiful little anecdote in the

367
00:13:54,390 --> 00:13:51,430
words of someone who was there at the

368
00:13:58,140 --> 00:13:54,400
time it is and you know it's it's

369
00:13:59,490 --> 00:13:58,150
interesting because as you point out if

370
00:14:01,620 --> 00:13:59,500
you're a skeptic you can of course

371
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:01,630
dismiss this story you can dismiss

372
00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:03,970
anything but you can say oh my gosh you

373
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:05,740
know it's a family member and they

374
00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:07,450
wanted to say this or they wanted to

375
00:14:11,970 --> 00:14:09,970
create this but it doesn't that doesn't

376
00:14:13,950 --> 00:14:11,980
really make any sense really I mean

377
00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:13,960
these people are no different than we

378
00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:16,630
are today why would someone make up this

379
00:14:22,770 --> 00:14:19,540
kind of story moreover for all and this

380
00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:22,780
is the reason that we kind of see a lot

381
00:14:28,070 --> 00:14:25,780
of momentum towards this belief that we

382
00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:28,080
have that there is that it is

383
00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:30,120
I like suggestive of an afterlife is

384
00:14:33,950 --> 00:14:31,860
it's consistent with so many other

385
00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:33,960
accounts that you hear from all kinds of

386
00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:36,150
people in all kinds of different walks

387
00:14:41,270 --> 00:14:39,000
of life so I think it's just it's so

388
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:41,280
hard to take that in isn't it because it

389
00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:45,510
is such an amazing story that we

390
00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:47,220
shouldn't need thousands of examples

391
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:49,230
even though we have a lot of examples we

392
00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:50,610
shouldn't need so many examples of that

393
00:14:54,950 --> 00:14:52,470
should be I mean it it's an amazing

394
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:54,960
account yeah

395
00:14:59,000 --> 00:14:56,850
firstly the thing that grabbed me about

396
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:59,010
that one was when she introduced by

397
00:15:02,090 --> 00:15:00,720
saying that she felt this rush of wind

398
00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:02,100
because that's something else that I've

399
00:15:05,390 --> 00:15:03,750
researched for quite some time that a

400
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:05,400
lot of people having near-death

401
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:06,900
experiences right through to other

402
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:09,930
anomalous phenomena feel or talk about a

403
00:15:14,270 --> 00:15:12,690
rush of wind hitting them and they use

404
00:15:16,130 --> 00:15:14,280
those exact words so that's what really

405
00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:16,140
grabbed my attention with that but

406
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:18,390
beyond you know any sort of proof of

407
00:15:21,890 --> 00:15:20,310
those things like you said these are

408
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:21,900
profound experiences and that's one of

409
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:24,240
the things that I ended up coming to in

410
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:26,250
this book is that these are profound

411
00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:27,810
experiences that people having that

412
00:15:33,620 --> 00:15:32,070
absolutely life-changing and yet at the

413
00:15:35,330 --> 00:15:33,630
moment in modern society they're being

414
00:15:37,190 --> 00:15:35,340
belittled and you know there's so many

415
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:37,200
again and again in these accounts you

416
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:39,990
find that people didn't tell about these

417
00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:42,450
accounts to other people just because

418
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:43,830
they were afraid of being labeled crazy

419
00:15:48,890 --> 00:15:46,290
or like you know palliative care is or

420
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:48,900
people at death beds have these profound

421
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:50,610
experiences and then say that I didn't

422
00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:52,050
tell anyone for a whole year because

423
00:15:55,910 --> 00:15:53,760
they thought someone would say you're

424
00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:55,920
crazy or certainly and we're really to

425
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:57,660
get out of that habit and start talking

426
00:16:02,120 --> 00:15:59,120
about these beautiful experiences again

427
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:02,130
yeah you mentioned a lot of these are

428
00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:04,170
recorded from back in the Victorian era

429
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:06,870
but there are also a lot of contemporary

430
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:07,890
accounts too

431
00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:10,080
I don't recall reading your book if you

432
00:16:17,270 --> 00:16:14,190
ran across Dian Archangel who was a

433
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:17,280
hospital Hospice at the kubler-ross

434
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:20,040
Center in Houston but nurse someone I

435
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:22,290
spoke with and not a nurse but I mean a

436
00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:26,250
very high-level person in that important

437
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:28,980
hospice group in Houston that really

438
00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:31,010
started the whole hospice movement and

439
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:33,990
she was in contact with a lot of hospice

440
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:37,650
nurses and collected a whole bunch of

441
00:16:41,369 --> 00:16:39,330
these stories and published them in a

442
00:16:45,019 --> 00:16:41,379
book and there is a group

443
00:16:49,079 --> 00:16:45,029
nurses for which these accounts are just

444
00:16:51,569 --> 00:16:49,089
souls commonplace that they're not even

445
00:16:54,239 --> 00:16:51,579
disputed I mean I do challenge that to

446
00:16:56,249 --> 00:16:54,249
any you know person who is skeptical but

447
00:17:00,829 --> 00:16:56,259
still interested in this is go down to

448
00:17:03,149 --> 00:17:00,839
your local elderly care / hospice

449
00:17:05,939 --> 00:17:03,159
organization and just buy a cup of

450
00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:05,949
coffee - for a couple of nurses and ask

451
00:17:11,100 --> 00:17:09,220
them about deathbed visits I guarantee

452
00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:11,110
you well you won't get past a couple of

453
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:13,240
sips and they'll have more stories than

454
00:17:18,749 --> 00:17:16,959
can you know a book that's really kicked

455
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:18,759
off that deathbed vision chapter when I

456
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:22,720
read a Peter Phoenix paper with Hilary

457
00:17:26,249 --> 00:17:24,490
love license ooh brain comfort for the

458
00:17:28,019 --> 00:17:26,259
dying a five year retrospective and

459
00:17:29,369 --> 00:17:28,029
one-year prospective study of

460
00:17:32,159 --> 00:17:29,379
end-of-life experiences

461
00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:32,169
now they surveyed 38 carers palliative

462
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:34,740
care is including doctors nurses or

463
00:17:40,379 --> 00:17:38,080
anybody involved in that and you know

464
00:17:44,909 --> 00:17:40,389
their statistics showed that at least

465
00:17:46,889 --> 00:17:44,919
60% had stories of deathbed visions in

466
00:17:49,649 --> 00:17:46,899
the like you know so it's more than half

467
00:17:51,690 --> 00:17:49,659
of all those carers report these things

468
00:17:53,399 --> 00:17:51,700
and and then when I went to you know

469
00:17:56,009 --> 00:17:53,409
McConville in Ireland and then there's

470
00:17:57,659 --> 00:17:56,019
an American study that had like 500

471
00:18:00,509 --> 00:17:57,669
participants and they're all around that

472
00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:00,519
60 to 70 percent of palliative care is

473
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:02,740
say that they've experienced these these

474
00:18:06,509 --> 00:18:04,480
things so yeah it's just a massive

475
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:06,519
amount and it's very common and yet we

476
00:18:11,669 --> 00:18:08,980
hardly hear negative experiences get all

477
00:18:13,409 --> 00:18:11,679
this media attention and deathbed

478
00:18:17,999 --> 00:18:13,419
visions you know they don't seem to rate

479
00:18:19,769 --> 00:18:18,009
the same attention I spoke to Michael

480
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:19,779
Baba though is a palliative care

481
00:18:24,899 --> 00:18:22,330
physician here in Australia and he sort

482
00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:24,909
of was of the feeling that with the end

483
00:18:28,590 --> 00:18:26,440
of life experiences the person dies

484
00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:28,600
afterwards so there's not this personal

485
00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:31,000
testimony a lot of the time with need a

486
00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:33,190
near-death experiences you have people

487
00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:35,470
who can go on TV shows and say I died

488
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:36,700
and I came back and this is what I

489
00:18:41,009 --> 00:18:39,370
experienced we're end of life

490
00:18:42,299 --> 00:18:41,019
experiences generally they go on to die

491
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,309
afterwards so you don't have this

492
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:44,559
testimony so that might that might be

493
00:18:51,509 --> 00:18:47,679
the driving factor behind that the other

494
00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:51,519
thing I think is a factor is we like the

495
00:18:58,620 --> 00:18:54,790
technology angle of resuscitation

496
00:19:00,450 --> 00:18:58,630
and it fits in with our cultural bias

497
00:19:02,190 --> 00:19:00,460
that we have about old medicine is

498
00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:02,200
advancing and you know that's I think

499
00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:03,700
that kind of fits into the stories like

500
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:05,950
we're bringing people back and now they

501
00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:07,930
can tell these stories I'd agree with

502
00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:09,190
you there and I think that's probably

503
00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:11,800
tied into as well to the we prefer to

504
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:13,060
hear about people living and people

505
00:19:17,370 --> 00:19:15,490
dying we don't want to confront the fact

506
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:17,380
that people do die all the time yeah

507
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,870
let's talk a little bit about near-death

508
00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:22,000
experience research you do a very nice

509
00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:24,150
job of covering it in the book as well

510
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:26,440
what is the state of near-death

511
00:19:32,910 --> 00:19:28,210
experience research what are we really

512
00:19:36,150 --> 00:19:32,920
at in terms of advancing that to the

513
00:19:37,830 --> 00:19:36,160
next level whatever that level is you

514
00:19:40,290 --> 00:19:37,840
know there's two fronts there is that

515
00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:40,300
whole proof based evidence based which I

516
00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:42,430
think stamp on is effort is probably the

517
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:44,620
only real thing that could convince

518
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:48,640
skeptics or Orthodox scientists if for

519
00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:51,310
those listeners who don't know sam Ponyo

520
00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:53,080
and colleagues have this study where

521
00:19:57,900 --> 00:19:55,990
it's called the aware study they have

522
00:19:59,340 --> 00:19:57,910
targets in rooms where they think people

523
00:20:00,600 --> 00:19:59,350
are going to have cardiac arrests and

524
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:00,610
they hope that if they have an

525
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:02,590
out-of-body experience and they get up

526
00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:03,910
to the ceiling they might be able to see

527
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:06,430
these targets and then report back so if

528
00:20:09,780 --> 00:20:08,290
they do that that's you know if someone

529
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:09,790
comes back or two people come back and

530
00:20:13,230 --> 00:20:11,290
say those four the targets that might

531
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:13,240
start changing the whole evident

532
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:18,610
evidence-based thing may be skeptics a

533
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:21,850
rather hardcore in their beliefs about

534
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:24,640
that sort of thing but then there's also

535
00:20:28,980 --> 00:20:26,290
the side of near-death experience

536
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:28,990
research where it's more about learning

537
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:30,400
more about how they affect people's

538
00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:31,810
lives and I think Bruce Grayson's

539
00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:33,640
probably you know right at the coalface

540
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:36,070
they're working on that so you've got

541
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:38,530
these two areas and the evidence based

542
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:40,210
is always going to be uphill battle like

543
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:41,860
I said I think the aware study is

544
00:20:45,810 --> 00:20:43,720
probably the only method of going

545
00:20:48,020 --> 00:20:45,820
forward there there are you do have all

546
00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:48,030
these veridical accounts of OBEs and

547
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:50,350
Janice miner Holden has done a great job

548
00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:52,450
of assembling you know a lot of those

549
00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:54,100
anecdotes I don't think they were ever

550
00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:55,870
going to convince the hardcore skeptics

551
00:20:59,370 --> 00:20:57,550
whereas the aware study might start

552
00:21:02,040 --> 00:20:59,380
persuading people if they can come back

553
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:02,050
with data although again that's going to

554
00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:04,210
be a really hard push as I explained in

555
00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:07,400
the book as to how much

556
00:21:14,110 --> 00:21:09,470
research needs to be done just to pull

557
00:21:15,580 --> 00:21:14,120
out a few Oh bees so yeah but I think

558
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:15,590
you know Bruce Grace and people like

559
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:16,010
that

560
00:21:19,780 --> 00:21:18,290
writing for the journal near-death

561
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:19,790
studies who are looking more at the

562
00:21:23,590 --> 00:21:22,010
social phenomenon and the personal

563
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:23,600
phenomenon of how near to near-death

564
00:21:27,730 --> 00:21:26,240
experiences affect people I think that's

565
00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:27,740
quite interesting as well and probably

566
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:29,720
gets lost in the mix a bit people all

567
00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:30,890
want evidence but there's this whole

568
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:32,630
other side that it's a profound

569
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:33,830
experience and how is it affecting

570
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:37,010
people so yeah you know you've touched

571
00:21:42,030 --> 00:21:39,050
on this a couple times already but let's

572
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:42,040
talk about the culture war debate over

573
00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:44,510
consciousness you know you start the

574
00:21:49,030 --> 00:21:46,520
book the book again folks is stop

575
00:21:51,460 --> 00:21:49,040
worrying there probably is an afterlife

576
00:21:53,710 --> 00:21:51,470
and you start it with a very nice

577
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:53,720
introduction on the ghost in the machine

578
00:21:58,600 --> 00:21:57,080
and in that you not only trace the

579
00:22:01,870 --> 00:21:58,610
origins of near-death experience

580
00:22:05,530 --> 00:22:01,880
research but of this again scientific

581
00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:05,540
cultural war over consciousness frame it

582
00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:07,580
up for us a little bit I mean on one

583
00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:10,190
side we have this people get tired of me

584
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:12,260
saying this but it's the consciousness

585
00:22:19,270 --> 00:22:15,310
is an illusion of biological robots side

586
00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:19,280
versus this consciousness is fundamental

587
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:21,670
and you talk about some prominent

588
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:23,930
scientists who believe that who believe

589
00:22:30,010 --> 00:22:26,870
that consciousness is the fundamental

590
00:22:32,020 --> 00:22:30,020
building block of the universe frame up

591
00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:32,030
for us that culture war debate over

592
00:22:36,220 --> 00:22:33,800
consciousness and where you think it's

593
00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:36,230
at where you think it's heading well

594
00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:37,640
this is something we cover on the daily

595
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:40,340
growl quite a lot so that's that's one

596
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:42,110
reason for the introduction I felt sort

597
00:22:45,910 --> 00:22:43,850
of I needed to introduce the reader to

598
00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:45,920
this sort of debate because in the

599
00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:48,500
modern day you Richard Dawkins and I

600
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:51,100
like seem to get all the publicity

601
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:53,330
especially when you read a lot of

602
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:57,440
scientific sources so so I just

603
00:23:01,270 --> 00:22:58,880
explained how over the recent centuries

604
00:23:02,890 --> 00:23:01,280
just all these different aspects of

605
00:23:05,620 --> 00:23:02,900
science have led people more and more

606
00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:05,630
away from a sort of spiritual worldview

607
00:23:13,690 --> 00:23:09,560
into the view that the physical world is

608
00:23:15,670 --> 00:23:13,700
everything and we are just slime on a

609
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:15,680
little piece of rock that orbits the Sun

610
00:23:20,770 --> 00:23:17,570
and we have limited lifetim and

611
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:20,780
basically there is no meaning to life

612
00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:24,170
I then sort of point out that even

613
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:26,180
though that gets all the media there are

614
00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:28,370
a bunch of really good scientists you

615
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,140
know very highly respected that you know

616
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:32,720
the likes of Paul Davies who don't

617
00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:35,690
believe that that's the case that or at

618
00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:37,700
least suspect that's not the case

619
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:39,260
yeah they see consciousness is something

620
00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:42,110
very fundamental in the universe the

621
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:45,470
universe or us being conscious and then

622
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:48,050
analyzing the universe ourselves seems

623
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:50,330
to be this way of the whole universe

624
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:52,490
waking up and learning more about itself

625
00:23:56,980 --> 00:23:55,310
so and then there's the aspects of

626
00:23:59,650 --> 00:23:56,990
quantum physics where consciousness

627
00:24:01,870 --> 00:23:59,660
seems to be a little bit or a little bit

628
00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:01,880
a consciousness seems to be really tied

629
00:24:07,090 --> 00:24:05,750
into quantum physics there this is

630
00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:07,100
something I talk about another interview

631
00:24:11,140 --> 00:24:09,830
recently it's amazing when you talk

632
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:11,150
about science and how its supposedly

633
00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:14,330
concrete facts it finds out the facts

634
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:16,370
and it reports back the facts I went

635
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:17,570
through all the quantum physics

636
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:19,250
literature and it's quite amazing that

637
00:24:22,990 --> 00:24:20,930
you have all these quantum physicists

638
00:24:24,940 --> 00:24:23,000
who go from one end of the scale saying

639
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:24,950
consciousness is fundamental and is

640
00:24:28,750 --> 00:24:27,170
everything right through a hardcore

641
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:28,760
materialist who say consciousness so

642
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:29,600
there's nothing to do with quantum

643
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:32,390
physics and they all state it as if it's

644
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:35,120
been scientifically proven and it's

645
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:38,090
quite amazing that that divided coming

646
00:24:41,950 --> 00:24:39,260
from something that you would you

647
00:24:43,150 --> 00:24:41,960
thought was science you know Stokes yeah

648
00:24:45,130 --> 00:24:43,160
but don't we you know one of my

649
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:45,140
frustrations and sometimes I wonder if

650
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:48,710
we don't play into that false divide

651
00:24:54,820 --> 00:24:51,770
because it is a false divide I mean as

652
00:24:58,150 --> 00:24:54,830
you are alluding to I think most people

653
00:25:01,600 --> 00:24:58,160
if they dig into the quantum theory

654
00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:01,610
quantum mechanics experiments but not

655
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:03,590
only those but the other experience with

656
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:05,210
consciousness from all over the place

657
00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:08,690
that not only is the data heading us

658
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:11,630
towards this idea of this expanded view

659
00:25:15,820 --> 00:25:13,670
of consciousness and away from the

660
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:15,830
status quo view that consciousness is an

661
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:18,530
illusion but the whole thing was just

662
00:25:25,150 --> 00:25:21,530
absurd from the first place I mean no

663
00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:25,160
one believes that we don't love our

664
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:26,900
children that we don't love our parents

665
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:29,090
our family that there isn't this special

666
00:25:32,750 --> 00:25:31,910
connection that we're able to form and

667
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:32,760
yet

668
00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:36,810
is totally at odds with this status quo

669
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:39,540
view as you said that we are slime Iraq

670
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:43,050
orbiting the Sun kind of thing you won't

671
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:45,210
really find anyone who truly believes

672
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:47,250
that we don't have free will and acts as

673
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:49,350
if we don't have free will and yet you

674
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:52,170
know my kids go to school and it's not

675
00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:53,970
they don't beat them over the head with

676
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:56,430
it but it's underlying all their

677
00:26:02,690 --> 00:25:59,760
education about science so are we kind

678
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:02,700
of playing into this emperor has no

679
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:05,520
clothes kind of thing where we go gee it

680
00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:07,290
really is a debate out there and it's

681
00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:09,150
hard to see how we have scientists on

682
00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:10,800
one side and scientists on the other

683
00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:12,600
can't we just call it for what it is

684
00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:14,940
it's a total bunch of bull that doesn't

685
00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:15,960
make any sense

686
00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:17,580
consciousness is an illusion of a

687
00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:19,680
biological robot we know better than

688
00:26:23,060 --> 00:26:20,550
that don't we

689
00:26:25,610 --> 00:26:23,070
when you look at all these high profile

690
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:25,620
scientists yeah your Dawkins and the

691
00:26:30,830 --> 00:26:28,050
like they will tell you straight out

692
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:30,840
they believe with it whether they

693
00:26:34,430 --> 00:26:32,580
believe that fully when they go to bed

694
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:34,440
at night things that yes there is like

695
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:37,740
like you said there's this funny they

696
00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:39,150
get caught in traps where they say all

697
00:26:42,620 --> 00:26:40,500
this one thing and then you can actually

698
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:42,630
say you know in the argument you can

699
00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:44,370
quite young actually corner them and say

700
00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:48,300
well if there's no free will then you're

701
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:49,500
not making that decision and therefore

702
00:26:59,840 --> 00:26:54,720
this yeah it's almost argument to absurd

703
00:27:02,210 --> 00:26:59,850
him and this is this whole other side to

704
00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:02,220
when you talk to a henry stat you know a

705
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:04,500
very respected quantum physicist and

706
00:27:09,860 --> 00:27:07,740
he's he's actually beyond just the you

707
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:09,870
know this is a bit of you know people

708
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:12,570
are wrong here and let's just get it

709
00:27:16,250 --> 00:27:14,130
right he's starting to feel that that

710
00:27:18,770 --> 00:27:16,260
actual worldview we were teaching it to

711
00:27:20,810 --> 00:27:18,780
kids in school and things like that is

712
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:20,820
actually could be responsible for a

713
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:23,010
whole degredation of moral standards in

714
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:24,360
the world because if you push that

715
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:26,250
there's no free will then nobody has any

716
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:28,530
responsibility and yeah you start going

717
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:30,720
down a very deep and dark hole there so

718
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:32,730
he's actually quite outspoken on that

719
00:27:39,050 --> 00:27:35,760
fact in his book he goes in in detail

720
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:39,060
into how he thinks that the view of

721
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:41,250
integrating consciousness and freewill

722
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:44,430
back into the world view would go a long

723
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:46,200
way to redressing some of the ills

724
00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:47,910
the world at moments yeah although

725
00:27:52,820 --> 00:27:50,760
that's scientists like wanting to stay

726
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:52,830
on top of the heap and saying you know

727
00:27:55,850 --> 00:27:54,690
we still have all the answers just let

728
00:27:58,340 --> 00:27:55,860
us spin it a different way

729
00:28:00,860 --> 00:27:58,350
though I always looked at it is it

730
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:00,870
really undermine science because the

731
00:28:06,890 --> 00:28:04,170
average person who at least we know from

732
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:06,900
a crowdsourcing kind of standpoint is

733
00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:09,120
not dumb the wisdom of crowds has been

734
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:10,670
established over and over again and

735
00:28:15,170 --> 00:28:12,750
people just know that's bunk

736
00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:15,180
they just know that's bull so they just

737
00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:18,120
feel more and more disassociated with

738
00:28:22,790 --> 00:28:21,240
this scientific worldview and they just

739
00:28:23,870 --> 00:28:22,800
think they're a bunch of nerds that

740
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:23,880
don't know what they're talking about

741
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:25,770
and they're right I mean they've

742
00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:27,690
convinced themselves of something I

743
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:29,460
remember talking to dr. Charles tart

744
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:32,760
years ago and about this and he wrote a

745
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:35,940
book on the end of materialism I guess

746
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:37,530
it wrote it a little premature it was a

747
00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:40,770
few years ago but in in that and when I

748
00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:42,390
spoke to him you know I said how can

749
00:28:47,210 --> 00:28:44,790
this be you know how can these guys keep

750
00:28:49,850 --> 00:28:47,220
promoting this nonsense and it goes you

751
00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:49,860
know it's amazing what intelligent

752
00:28:54,290 --> 00:28:52,470
people can talk themselves into when

753
00:28:56,060 --> 00:28:54,300
they don't kind of check themselves and

754
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:56,070
I think that's what's going on I think

755
00:28:59,060 --> 00:28:57,690
the emperor has no clothes no one

756
00:29:00,560 --> 00:28:59,070
believes it's a bunch of crap and I

757
00:29:02,150 --> 00:29:00,570
think the general public knows it's a

758
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:02,160
bunch of crap and it just further

759
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:04,620
undermines their trust in science so

760
00:29:09,260 --> 00:29:07,110
they yeah the engineers can do things I

761
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:09,270
know my iphone works and I know this but

762
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:10,860
when it comes to really big questions I

763
00:29:13,850 --> 00:29:12,360
think they turn away from science and

764
00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:13,860
they go yeah they don't know what

765
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:14,520
they're talking about

766
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:16,410
there's certainly belief systems

767
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:18,390
involved you know as much as scientists

768
00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:19,410
and skeptics say they're the

769
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:21,030
non-believers this there's definitely

770
00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:23,970
belief systems involved there I just saw

771
00:29:28,390 --> 00:29:26,100
an example the other day there was a new

772
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:28,400
paper came out disputing the famous

773
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:31,650
little bit experient experiments on free

774
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:34,130
will from a while back that has just

775
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:36,270
quoted over and over again by anybody

776
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:37,770
against free will just quotes that

777
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:40,170
experiment over and over again and this

778
00:29:43,730 --> 00:29:41,850
new paper has come out disputing it and

779
00:29:45,620 --> 00:29:43,740
pointing out errors in the way it's

780
00:29:48,830 --> 00:29:45,630
probably you know where it's gone wrong

781
00:29:51,980 --> 00:29:48,840
and I've seen no coverage of it at all

782
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:51,990
you know Richard Wiseman who is always

783
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:54,240
on about free well he said nothing about

784
00:29:56,420 --> 00:29:54,570
it

785
00:29:59,240 --> 00:29:56,430
Dawkins nothing about all these people

786
00:29:59,690 --> 00:29:59,250
if Rupert Sheldrake had to come out with

787
00:30:02,509 --> 00:29:59,700
a paper

788
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:02,519
you know arguing for consciousness they

789
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:03,750
would have been all over it and talking

790
00:30:08,769 --> 00:30:05,970
about it so again it's a belief system

791
00:30:12,289 --> 00:30:08,779
that they will not look at things that

792
00:30:14,899 --> 00:30:12,299
dispute the belief system and they'll

793
00:30:18,740 --> 00:30:14,909
attack anything that again disputes they

794
00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:18,750
will sit well view say mm-hmm you know

795
00:30:24,230 --> 00:30:21,720
one other thing I guess I like to kind

796
00:30:25,909 --> 00:30:24,240
of I always find the things I pick on I

797
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:25,919
guess correct so I guess one thing I've

798
00:30:30,049 --> 00:30:27,840
got to pick on about the book and I

799
00:30:32,539 --> 00:30:30,059
wanted to ask you about is the very

800
00:30:33,919 --> 00:30:32,549
first sentence of the book is you are

801
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:33,929
going to die

802
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:36,450
which I guess is going to be kind of

803
00:30:38,419 --> 00:30:37,980
provocative and puts us all on the same

804
00:30:39,879 --> 00:30:38,429
boat

805
00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:39,889
don't you have to kind of wrestle this

806
00:30:44,779 --> 00:30:42,360
survival of consciousness thing to the

807
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:44,789
to the ground and hey don't worry

808
00:30:49,549 --> 00:30:47,279
there's probably an afterlife I take

809
00:30:52,220 --> 00:30:49,559
exception of that I mean I look at the

810
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:52,230
research I look at the evidence and I

811
00:30:57,169 --> 00:30:55,230
come to the opposite conclusion you are

812
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,179
not going to die isn't that what the

813
00:31:01,879 --> 00:30:59,279
evidence is telling us what well there's

814
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:01,889
two two parts that the you are going to

815
00:31:05,690 --> 00:31:03,210
die bit is just the fact that your

816
00:31:07,639 --> 00:31:05,700
physical body is going to die which most

817
00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:07,649
people I think and the point there was

818
00:31:12,350 --> 00:31:10,289
that people will ignore that at any you

819
00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:12,360
know any way they can they will ignore

820
00:31:15,379 --> 00:31:13,860
the fact that their physical body is

821
00:31:17,419 --> 00:31:15,389
going to die unless there's some great

822
00:31:20,269 --> 00:31:17,429
step forward and you know singularity

823
00:31:22,570 --> 00:31:20,279
type thing they're going to die so I was

824
00:31:25,580 --> 00:31:22,580
just putting that right on the table

825
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:25,590
again Michael Barbato who I spoke to you

826
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:27,840
know just says we need to embrace more

827
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:29,490
the fact that we will die at some stage

828
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:31,830
we need to be ready that yeah we are

829
00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:32,970
going to die and even if you believe

830
00:31:38,629 --> 00:31:36,630
that consciousness survives on people

831
00:31:40,580 --> 00:31:38,639
are going to be left behind without

832
00:31:41,570 --> 00:31:40,590
physical contact with that person so

833
00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:41,580
there's something that needs to be

834
00:31:46,159 --> 00:31:44,460
addressed there but no I agree I think

835
00:31:47,509 --> 00:31:46,169
you know the whole point of the book is

836
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:47,519
to say there seems to be evidence that

837
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:49,830
consciousness does survive so the

838
00:31:52,879 --> 00:31:51,510
opening was just basically like you said

839
00:31:54,409 --> 00:31:52,889
just to hit people in the face straight

840
00:31:58,519 --> 00:31:54,419
up and say let's address this off the

841
00:32:00,590 --> 00:31:58,529
mark and also just to get at that fact

842
00:32:03,139 --> 00:32:00,600
it start thinking about your death and

843
00:32:06,019 --> 00:32:03,149
what that means for the how you act your

844
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:06,029
life out you know which in the final

845
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:08,399
chapter I sort of go back to that while

846
00:32:11,930 --> 00:32:09,360
you're here on this planet

847
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:11,940
let's do good and you know let's learn

848
00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:13,600
let's hope people let's do the right

849
00:32:18,270 --> 00:32:15,910
things so that by the time you physical

850
00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:18,280
death at least comes that you have lived

851
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:20,590
your life well mm-hmm you know you

852
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:22,510
actually have a nice quote in there I

853
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:25,260
forget who it's from but our death

854
00:32:32,039 --> 00:32:28,690
really defines our life if we didn't

855
00:32:34,529 --> 00:32:32,049
have death looming the death of our

856
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:34,539
physical body the question mark of what

857
00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:37,450
a night what that annihilation will mean

858
00:32:43,020 --> 00:32:40,150
we would really have a whole different

859
00:32:45,270 --> 00:32:43,030
conception of our life and I think until

860
00:32:48,510 --> 00:32:45,280
we fully take that in as you point out

861
00:32:50,850 --> 00:32:48,520
we can fully appreciate what we have in

862
00:32:53,010 --> 00:32:50,860
this experience whatever we're supposed

863
00:32:54,539 --> 00:32:53,020
to do with it well you know when you're

864
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:54,549
working on a project even if you have a

865
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,370
project that's open-ended it tends to

866
00:33:00,450 --> 00:32:59,200
not get done it gets shuffled back while

867
00:33:02,580 --> 00:33:00,460
you work on other things in a more

868
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:02,590
urgent so addressing that fact that at

869
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:04,809
some stage you're going to physical it

870
00:33:09,390 --> 00:33:07,840
your body is going to die it means that

871
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:09,400
you should concentrate it a lot more on

872
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:11,200
squeezing everything out of everyday as

873
00:33:16,169 --> 00:33:13,120
you go on rather than sort of getting to

874
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:16,179
60s or 70s and realizing you just didn't

875
00:33:19,890 --> 00:33:17,530
achieve what you wanted to in this life

876
00:33:21,330 --> 00:33:19,900
on earth you know so now we're

877
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:21,340
approaching something that you don't

878
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:22,960
cover a lot the book and I was wondering

879
00:33:27,659 --> 00:33:25,090
why and that is the spiritual

880
00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:27,669
implications for all of this I mean they

881
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:29,500
seem to be looming right there

882
00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:31,360
but I guess that's another one of my

883
00:33:36,899 --> 00:33:33,940
frustrations with a lot of this research

884
00:33:39,539 --> 00:33:36,909
and it is that take for example a

885
00:33:42,330 --> 00:33:39,549
near-death experience or the deathbed

886
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:42,340
vision experience what people come back

887
00:33:47,159 --> 00:33:45,250
from that directly is that they don't

888
00:33:49,470 --> 00:33:47,169
come back and say oh my gosh that's

889
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:49,480
highly evidential of survival of

890
00:33:52,980 --> 00:33:51,490
consciousness now they want to talk

891
00:33:54,690 --> 00:33:52,990
about God they want to talk about the

892
00:33:58,049 --> 00:33:54,700
white light thingy they want to talk

893
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:58,059
about the moral meaning though the moral

894
00:34:05,130 --> 00:34:00,640
imperative that that brings to their

895
00:34:07,140 --> 00:34:05,140
life do we in general shy away too much

896
00:34:10,290 --> 00:34:07,150
from the obvious spiritual implications

897
00:34:12,629 --> 00:34:10,300
for all this oh I think so and again

898
00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:12,639
that just came down to there was a lot

899
00:34:16,169 --> 00:34:14,200
of fear bit of that in the material I

900
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:16,179
did have and it just got edited down for

901
00:34:19,740 --> 00:34:18,340
the punch that I'm hitting the general

902
00:34:22,379 --> 00:34:19,750
readership and I'm just trying to get

903
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:22,389
across to them all these things and then

904
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:24,970
I think David Fontana wrote a book

905
00:34:27,740 --> 00:34:26,220
addressing some of those

906
00:34:29,930 --> 00:34:27,750
you know what what happens after life

907
00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:29,940
and what might that mean for how we live

908
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:31,470
our life so that sort of covered

909
00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:33,510
elsewhere I would have liked to have

910
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:36,030
covered in the conclusion I actually

911
00:34:40,669 --> 00:34:39,090
mentioned a little bit about it was

912
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:40,679
edited down a fair bit but I was sort of

913
00:34:45,619 --> 00:34:42,960
saying that if near-death experiences

914
00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:45,629
had started at a religion about the way

915
00:34:48,879 --> 00:34:47,399
did it live spiritually I you know it's

916
00:34:51,050 --> 00:34:48,889
not not a bad way to live I think

917
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:51,060
basically your near-death experiences

918
00:34:55,570 --> 00:34:53,730
come back and they're saying what you

919
00:34:58,070 --> 00:34:55,580
should be doing is loving people and

920
00:34:59,660 --> 00:34:58,080
learning as much as you can and doing

921
00:35:02,240 --> 00:34:59,670
right by other people you know like the

922
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:02,250
the life review process always or not

923
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:03,810
always but quite often you see that it's

924
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:06,690
it's experienced from other people's

925
00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:08,490
aspects as well and how you affected

926
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:12,150
them and it addresses that you should be

927
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,700
acting well to other people so all these

928
00:35:17,420 --> 00:35:16,320
aspects of the near-death experience I

929
00:35:20,510 --> 00:35:17,430
think would make a great sort of

930
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:20,520
spiritual way forward if you wanted to

931
00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:22,710
turn it into a religion but again once

932
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:24,030
things become a religion we know they

933
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:28,170
become corrupt and so the other thing

934
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:32,810
was that at the best of times I feel

935
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:36,330
uncomfortable suggesting to others what

936
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:37,530
they should be doing or what they should

937
00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:39,480
be thinking I like to just put facts

938
00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:42,060
across the people so the spiritual

939
00:35:45,020 --> 00:35:43,800
elements I sort of feel a little bit

940
00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:45,030
uncomfortable addressing them because

941
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:46,950
I'm certainly not no spiritual guru or

942
00:35:50,930 --> 00:35:49,440
anything like that so I just wanted to

943
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:50,940
get the facts of these things across and

944
00:35:56,420 --> 00:35:53,910
also transmit a little bit about like

945
00:35:59,240 --> 00:35:56,430
like I said what near-death experiences

946
00:36:00,829 --> 00:35:59,250
coming come back saying and I address a

947
00:36:03,070 --> 00:36:00,839
little bit that in the conclusion about

948
00:36:04,940 --> 00:36:03,080
living your life well so yeah I

949
00:36:06,740 --> 00:36:04,950
understand your frustration there's

950
00:36:08,359 --> 00:36:06,750
something that I wrestled with a little

951
00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:08,369
bit during the writing of it it just

952
00:36:11,810 --> 00:36:10,230
came down to a decision as to what

953
00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:11,820
effect I wanted the book to have really

954
00:36:16,370 --> 00:36:13,470
well let me jump over on the other side

955
00:36:20,750 --> 00:36:16,380
and say I think you do a great job and I

956
00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:20,760
think there's in terms of winning people

957
00:36:26,859 --> 00:36:23,550
over I think this book might have a lot

958
00:36:30,020 --> 00:36:26,869
more success than a book that's highly

959
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:30,030
spiritually oriented because you're

960
00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:30,510
right

961
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:33,180
that does set people to skew a little

962
00:36:37,970 --> 00:36:35,250
bit because it bumps up against some

963
00:36:38,910 --> 00:36:37,980
very important cherished beliefs that

964
00:36:41,849 --> 00:36:38,920
they have

965
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:41,859
so at the end of the day I think you

966
00:36:46,530 --> 00:36:43,599
probably made the best decision because

967
00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:46,540
you just present a ton of hard-hitting

968
00:36:52,589 --> 00:36:49,030
well documented carefully researched

969
00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,599
facts that are hard to get past and then

970
00:36:57,780 --> 00:36:54,720
I think you leave it up to the reader to

971
00:37:00,150 --> 00:36:57,790
come to their conclusions about what to

972
00:37:03,690 --> 00:37:00,160
do with it so maybe you did the right

973
00:37:05,339 --> 00:37:03,700
thing that was the goal I think yeah

974
00:37:06,809 --> 00:37:05,349
once you had those spiritual elements I

975
00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:06,819
think you got it exactly right you're

976
00:37:11,370 --> 00:37:09,190
bumping up against people's own beliefs

977
00:37:12,539 --> 00:37:11,380
or their own feelings and you get you

978
00:37:15,089 --> 00:37:12,549
know you're gonna lose most of the

979
00:37:16,859 --> 00:37:15,099
skeptics and scientists straightaway and

980
00:37:18,599 --> 00:37:16,869
then the further deeper you go to that

981
00:37:19,799 --> 00:37:18,609
spiritual sort of matters the more you

982
00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:19,809
might be bumping up against other

983
00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:22,900
people's religious feelings or otherwise

984
00:37:29,549 --> 00:37:26,049
so I'm glad that yeah for a great

985
00:37:31,170 --> 00:37:29,559
decision so great tell us how's it going

986
00:37:33,150 --> 00:37:31,180
with the book what other events are you

987
00:37:35,849 --> 00:37:33,160
doing and what's going on in general

988
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:35,859
what can we expect to see coming up on

989
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,609
the daily rail the book is just rolling

990
00:37:41,569 --> 00:37:40,960
along nicely getting lots of good

991
00:37:43,710 --> 00:37:41,579
reviews

992
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:43,720
it needs word-of-mouth it's an

993
00:37:49,140 --> 00:37:46,510
independent publication all done

994
00:37:50,910 --> 00:37:49,150
completely by myself so if people can

995
00:37:54,270 --> 00:37:50,920
spread word about it any way they can or

996
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:54,280
wonder interview me I'm open to that so

997
00:37:57,569 --> 00:37:56,290
I appreciate any help in getting really

998
00:38:01,500 --> 00:37:57,579
out there but at the moment sales are

999
00:38:03,299 --> 00:38:01,510
strong and all the feedback well 99% of

1000
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:03,309
the feedback has been good the other 1%

1001
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:06,730
is from that portion of the skeptics

1002
00:38:12,990 --> 00:38:11,440
that we know and with the daily growth

1003
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:13,000
you know that this book has taken up a

1004
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:16,450
lot of time between the researching then

1005
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:17,770
the writing and then the editing down

1006
00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:19,510
it's taken up a lot more time than I

1007
00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:20,230
expected

1008
00:38:23,940 --> 00:38:22,089
next on dolly Grail is to basically

1009
00:38:26,430 --> 00:38:23,950
redesign the site and make it a little

1010
00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:26,440
bit more friendly for mobile phones and

1011
00:38:30,569 --> 00:38:28,270
the like I think it's looking a bit

1012
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:30,579
antiquated at the moment but again I'm

1013
00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:32,650
working on basically no money all the

1014
00:38:36,809 --> 00:38:34,390
time so I do what I can

1015
00:38:39,349 --> 00:38:36,819
great well the book again is stop

1016
00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:39,359
worrying there probably is an afterlife

1017
00:38:44,819 --> 00:38:42,700
our guest has been Greg Taylor creator

1018
00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:44,829
of the daily Grail well of course have

1019
00:38:51,330 --> 00:38:47,500
links to both of those up there do check

1020
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,340
it out on Amazon nothing but blended

1021
00:38:55,770 --> 00:38:53,920
tacular reviews I think you really enjoy

1022
00:38:57,870 --> 00:38:55,780
the book as Greg mentioned I think

1023
00:39:00,510 --> 00:38:57,880
you'll find a lot of little nuggets in

1024
00:39:02,610 --> 00:39:00,520
there that you will be amazed that you

1025
00:39:04,410 --> 00:39:02,620
didn't know and it's certainly a book

1026
00:39:06,450 --> 00:39:04,420
that you could give to someone else and

1027
00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:06,460
they could gain a lot out of it if

1028
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:08,440
they're not totally up to speed on this

1029
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:10,930
field so Greg thanks again best of luck

1030
00:39:15,090 --> 00:39:12,400
with the book and thanks for joining me

1031
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:15,100
on skeptical thanks it was a pleasure

1032
00:39:18,570 --> 00:39:17,230
and thank you for the podcast - you do a

1033
00:39:20,070 --> 00:39:18,580
great job on the podcast and you

1034
00:39:26,190 --> 00:39:20,080
probably don't get enough kudos for it

1035
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:26,200
so thank you thanks again to Greg Taylor

1036
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:27,970
for joining me today on skeptic oh I

1037
00:39:32,550 --> 00:39:30,250
guess I'd have one question to tee up as

1038
00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:32,560
a result of this interview and it has to

1039
00:39:38,670 --> 00:39:35,830
do with these deathbed visions what do

1040
00:39:41,550 --> 00:39:38,680
you make of the very substantial body of

1041
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:41,560
evidence in favor of deathbed visions as

1042
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:43,540
you just heard Greg mentioned in the

1043
00:39:48,270 --> 00:39:46,270
research he's done the scientific survey

1044
00:39:51,150 --> 00:39:48,280
work that's been done suggest that most

1045
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:51,160
end-of-life care givers experience this

1046
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:53,470
many many people who've been with a

1047
00:39:58,770 --> 00:39:56,170
dying relative experienced this we know

1048
00:40:01,260 --> 00:39:58,780
this is happening what does this tell us

1049
00:40:02,670 --> 00:40:01,270
about consciousness what does it tell us

1050
00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:02,680
that's different from the near-death

1051
00:40:07,230 --> 00:40:04,630
experience or from other extended

1052
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:07,240
consciousness experiences and to what

1053
00:40:11,610 --> 00:40:09,610
extent is it consistent with everything

1054
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:11,620
we've learned let's dive in and take a

1055
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:14,110
look at deathbed visions of course the

1056
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:15,730
place to do that is at the skeptic Oh

1057
00:40:22,530 --> 00:40:20,800
website at SK EPT I K o dot-com from

1058
00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:22,540
there you can jump on over to the forum

1059
00:40:26,970 --> 00:40:25,060
and join a discussion there or leave a

1060
00:40:28,350 --> 00:40:26,980
comment directly on the website of

1061
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:28,360
course you can always reach me on

1062
00:40:33,780 --> 00:40:31,810
Facebook or directly via email all those

1063
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:33,790
links are there on the website you'll

1064
00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:36,130
also find there on the new improved

1065
00:40:41,370 --> 00:40:39,070
hopefully skeptiko website all of our

1066
00:40:43,650 --> 00:40:41,380
previous shows over 200 of them at this

1067
00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:43,660
point a place to subscribe through

1068
00:40:49,170 --> 00:40:46,630
iTunes and all that other good stuff I

1069
00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:49,180
just mentioned so I have a number of

1070
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:52,390
interesting shows coming up please stick